Hello, community. You are listening to Conversations with Chanda, where leadership gets real and personal. This is where we cut through the noise to confront the issues shaping our world and our community. From power and justice to the heart of community change. Hosted by me, Chanda Smith Baker, president and CEO of the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation.
So you walked in here, we're in the Landmark Towers, and apparently you have a relationship with this building that I had no clue on. So can you tell us what it is?
25 years.
You've worked here for 25 years.
I did. That's wild. Yeah, this is where I was the portfolio manager for my, um, family's investment partnership.
So 25 years in this building. Does it feel nostalgic? Does it feel surprising? Like, what is the feels?
I, well, the way I've been saying it, it's like higher power has a sense of humor.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Because I, I grew up in this building. I really did a 360, um, in... as it relates to money morality. Mm. Like, before coming to this office, I had a, a sort of understanding of the world, and then I...
Then working for my family's investment partnership really changed my understanding. And, um, I kinda feel like I went to the dark side and then I came back. And so I'm- Ooh ... grateful to have come out the other side. And, um, now my values are more in line with what they were when I was a younger person. But in the middle...
And so it's sort of a, um, it feels like a blessing of, uh, what- how do you say it when it's like a blessing and a curse at the same time, sort of. Mm. Because I, now I can see that I actually worked for the wealth protection industry, and now my passion is to disrupt the wealth protection industry. And had I not had the experience working within it, I wouldn't know how to disrupt it as well.
Yeah. What does the dark side of that work look like?
So, um, I... So the, the, the best ways that I can describe it are, and, um, I did in my most recent article talk about how, like, the more, the more, um, I have a net worth on paper, the lower my self-worth felt. Because being born with more money than you need makes it really hard to feel a sense of earning.
Because our culture is so focused on how much money you have, and if you are born with all of it, then everything you do becomes tainted because were you successful because the money helped you be successful, or did you... You know. Mm-hmm. And so esteemable acts become harder to find and, um, and so that... So to me, the, that inversion of, of self-esteem that, you know, most people think the more money you have, the more r- the more confident, the better you...
Some, for some people. Mm-hmm. Yeah. For some. Not for me. And, um, and I, and I don't think I'm alone. I think it's probably more typically a woman's, uh- Mm ... experience than a man's potentially. But, um, but then realizing that, that I... You know, I thought that I was creating a sense of self-worth by working to maintain the wealth that I didn't earn.
When I took the job in the family office, um, it's, I felt like... W- when we sold our shares, I felt like I'd won the lottery because all of a sudden, instead of this oppressive, um, company that I had no tangible control over, instead of that being the dictator of, of- what happened with the money. I had agency then.
Mm. So then, and then I sat at the desk and managed that money, and so then I felt a tangible relationship to it. But, and so that was very empowering. And so I used to say that I won the lottery when we sold the, the business, and I was able to go to work, um, with, you know, managing the money. But now that I've come out the other side, actually the, working within that was, was still, even though I was a professional sitting at a desk- Yeah
I was not considered one of the professionals. Mm-hmm. Mm.
Take us back a minute because, you know, I've had the pleasure of sitting with you. Now I get the pleasure of getting to know you better than probably I did with our time on the Women's Foundation board. Um, but, but ground us a little bit. Talk about, like, just- What were, what were you born into?
Who are you?
Yeah. Yeah. This is my rehearsed Okay ... way to say it. I am a fifth generation inheritor of wealth. Mm. My great-great-grandfather came from Denmark as a white male European immigrant, and he arrived in Minnesota 10 years post-genocide, the Dakota Wars. And he was able to create a s- successful operating company because the systems were set up for him to create a successful operating company.
Mm. Gratefully, he was, um, seemingly an egalitarian, generous man, and he, I think he was the youngest of 10 in Denmark. And, um, when he s- created An- it started as a lumber company, then became the window company. He was one of the first people in the country to create profit sharing and a employee stock ownership trust.
And so that gives me pride that he, he was always someone who shared. I mean, obviously with white people, but Mm-hmm ... but at least he, he didn't keep all the profits for himself. I think that was, that's an indicator. Obviously, I could never have known him, but it's an indicator that he was a generous person.
The other thing that he did that I feel proud of is that he had three children, two boys and a girl. He gave shares in the company equally- Mm ... to all three of them.
Yeah.
And so-
That's unusual ...
that was very unusual at the time. Mm-hmm. Um, we are a very small family so we are not, we ... After that, there have not been, you know, huge generations of, of inheritors, so the money has perpetuated.
And so I, as a fifth generation family member, was born with more money than I need. My children- That's right ... were born with more money than they need. And one of the things that, I'm sorry I'm getting off on a tangent, but one of the things that I, that I feel so strongly about disrupting is the fact that as a parent, I did not have a choice in whether or not my children would have more money than they need because of estate planning and generation-skipping trusts.
Did you have a choice on how they received the dollars?
Yes and no. The trusts are written, were written before I was born, so, like, the parameters that say, you know, when they get to have, um, access to the income- I have no say in. Um, now, gratefully, I am named the investment director, so now I get to at least say where those assets are invested, which is a huge- Mm-hmm
shift. But, um, but anyway, back to, like, back to who I am before I get off on the, on my passion for wealth protection disruption. Um, I... My parents divorced when I was eight, and my mom moved my sister and me to Bayfield, Wisconsin when I was 10 years old. And the median income in Bayfield is probably below poverty still to this day.
And my, um, high school was 50% Native American. Mm. And so that was the community that I was raised in from 10 years old through high school. And so that is really where my values kind of were created. Mm-hmm. And so I think that I'm so... It wasn't on purpose. My mom didn't do that, you know, intentionally. But, um, but because of that experience, that's, those are the values that I've come back to today- Mm-hmm
that it's more about community and I have, you have.
You know, a lot of our schools are pretty segregated, and obviously you entered into a setting that was unfamiliar to you. What, what else did you learn besides a sense of community?
It was, I mean, we were integrated Mm-hmm ... and, uh, and there were still, like, we were all friends.
It was very small. My high school class was 44 students. Yeah. So we were all friends. Mm-hmm. But, like, and one of my best friends was Native American, but there still was separation. And now when I think back to, um, you know, there was, uh, there was a room in the school that was the, um, Ojibwe room, and s- and we were just not invited into that room.
And, and that makes sense. But- Mm ... you know, but when I think back, there were, there were ways that we were still kept apart- Mm-hmm ... you know, on purpose. Yeah. And for, and maybe for good reason, but I just think that's important. And then the other thing that makes me who I am is my mom moved to Bayfield because divorce was not, was frowned upon at the time, and, um, and she wanted to use her inherited wealth the way she wanted to use it.
And if she had stayed in the Twin Cities sort of under the, the umbrella of family, she wouldn't have been able to do that. Mm. And she, and she did it despite a lot of criticism, but she moved to Bayfield, and she r- she redistributed her wealth in the community of Bayfield. And I watched that all of my, you know, young adult life.
And that really, um, fed into now the way I feel today, that, um, this money should be spent.
Yeah. When you hear the phrase generational wealth, what does it mean to you beyond money?
It means power, and it means inequity because the system is not set up for everyone to accumulate wealth. Mm-hmm. And those who have it, the systems are set up for those who have it to keep it.
Yeah. So how did you get to the point of thinking around wealth disruption? Like, what did that journey look like?
Uh, so I, um, so I had been working as the portfolio manager and kind of realizing that I wasn't a finance person. I'm a creative by nature. I was an art major in college, and so I, um, I sort of s- I started to feel less satisfied with that work and, um, and so I...
And then I got an MBA, which I thought was gonna kind of ground me in that work, and really it just taught me that I'm not a finance person, that I'd rather work with people, and that I'm more of a systems change kind of thinker. Mm-hmm. And so I left my position and I started a small business called Fixity.
And my, because I'm a crafty person, my goal was to keep perfectly good things out of the trash- Mm-hmm. Yes ... by repair. Like, you know. So I did that for a while, and that, and at the time there were Fix It clinics happening in Hennepin County, and it's where a volun- like, volunteers go to a library or, or a community center and help people fix their things.
Well, I started doing that in Ramsey County, and I did it long enough to get Ramsey County to do it, which I'm proud of. Mm-hmm. But that engaging with community in that way really started, uh, the, there's an isolation that happens with wealth that's intended because that's what keeps, you know, keeps the prote- that's part of the protection is-
Say, say more about that.
Yeah. So, um- So people who have... It, it, you can see it in neighborhoods, right? Like, I used to live in Crocus Hill. I really didn't have any friends. I mean, I, I, I was friendly with my neighbors, but there's not commerce, you know? Mm. People, they... And especially, we... I was just joking about this with somebody.
During the winter, nobody goes out their front doors.
Everybody's out that connected garage. Or if you
have alley, if you have an alley connected to somebody, you might talk to somebody. But- Mm ... you never see the neighbors that live across the street until it's nice outside. Mm. And, and nobody shares. You know, like, everybody's got their own lawnmower.
Everybody's got their own tools. Everybody's got what they need. Mm. So nobody, there's no interaction in a wealthy- Mm ... neighborhood. Whereas I moved to North Minneapolis, and now I have all this commerce, and I have all of these friends that I, and neighbors that I'm, that I commune with, and it's just so much different.
But the, the isolation that comes with wealth is intentional, and it, not only is it sort of geographically isolating, but it's also mentally and emotionally isolating 'cause we as, um, as inheritors, I was taught from early on not to talk about it. Like, we were not to talk about money. If I talked about it, then I was just gonna make other people envious, or they might wanna take advantage of me, or all of those things.
And so then, and as a kid, you know, you don't understand what it means, and then, and you're in school with people, you know, all day long, but you're not supposed to share, and it just didn't, it- Yeah ... it's a total mind that you, that you, you're supposed to take responsibility. Like, I was, I was told that I was supposed to be a responsible steward, but I didn't earn it.
Mm. And now I'm supposed to have ownership of it. That's a good point. And then now I'm supposed to give it away philanthropically? Like, it's, it's very confusing. And so the, the confusion leads to learned helplessness because you, uh, as well as other things, because you're afraid to ask questions because you're not supposed to talk about it.
Mm. You know? And so there's way, there's a lot of ways that the, that privacy and isolation go hand-in-hand with wealth protection.
Yeah. So what then did you have to unlearn?
Um-
And have you unlearned it?
Well, I'm trying. I mean, I, you know, I'm, I am a lifelong learner. Uh, I like to say I live on the learning edge of life, and when I stop, I'll, I'll be dead.
But Mm-hmm. I won't stop till I'm dead. Yeah. But, um, but I am unlearning, and every day I feel like I, I unlearn. Mm. So I seek, now I'm seeking opportunities to unlearn, but I have a story-
Yeah, tell
me ... that really, uh, really captures a lot. Um, so, um, you know Dr. Joy?
I do know Dr. Joy.
So I- Dr. Joy
Lewis.
Yeah, Dr.
Joy Lewis. So I had, um, participated in the, um, Road to Transformation, uh, Women of Influence series. Mm-hmm. And Dr. Joy was the facilitator, and it was on Zoom 'cause it was during, I think it was '20, I think it was early '21. I had participated in that. That was a, a very eye-opening experience. Dr. Joy and her teaching, her healing methods are exceptional, and, um, the way she engaged with us, and we learned, you know, we learned aspects of racism and, and our privilege, and the mandate was to set a, an audacious goal.
Simultaneously, my family decided to, um, so my grandparents had created the foundation, and the p- the pool of money that my grandparents had contributed to the foundation was sort of ... We, our foundation sort of acted like a community foundation, where we had the endowment that my grandparents had, had started, and then each of us had our own individual endowments.
But the 5% was k- you know, taken care of by the overarching grandparent fund. And so, um, and we, but ... And then we had to come together as a family. We were a, a board of the whole to make decisions about that granting, and my generation is the cousins' generation, which is typically where family business falls apart because- Mm-hmm
cousin consortiums, when they're siblings, they were raised by the same leader.
Right.
When it's cousins, they were raised in separate households. They don't answer to the same leader, and so we, we started to break apart. And, um- And so we decided to decant the grandparents fund into each of our funds. Mm-hmm.
Well, I had already realized, I mean, I, I had already, I was aware of the, the sense of hoarding that that felt like. Mm-hmm. Like, why, and why do I need more money to give away? Why wouldn't we just give it away? Mm-hmm. And so this was early, like, in my activation and, um, and so I decided that I was just gonna be a pass-through.
That the... And so it was about two and a half million dollars, and I was just gonna give it into community. And I n- I had a great relationship with the First People's Fund, Lori Pourier. Mm-hmm. And so I knew that I was gonna give a million and a half to them, and then I was looking for a, a Black foundation, a Black-led foundation that I could distribute a million dollars to.
And, and so I thought of Dr. Joy 'cause she has the Healing Justice Foundation. So I thought, "Well, I need to get to know her," so I invited her out to lunch. Well, she was smart enough to bring a friend because, you know, you go- coming to lunch with a, a white woman you've never met, and not sure why she's asking to meet with you.
And, um, we, and, and we, w- you know, had good conversation and whatever, and I asked her about the Healing Justice Foundation, and she told me. And I said, "Well, I'm, I'm, I would like to make a, a large donation to the Healing Justice Foundation." And I, and I can't remember exactly how it went, but I said, "A million dollars."
So I offered her a million dollars at lunch.
Yeah. Fantastic. And what did Dr. Joy say? If I can, I can sort of hear what I think she said,
but- She I don't know if I can remember exact words, but she was like, "Okay." "
What do you want?" And
then, and then, no, she was like, "We're gonna get to, we're gonna need to get to know each other."
And so then, and she was very, she was very reserved, but then she invited me to her home, and then we had conversation. And so I think I met with her for hours at a time. Like, we just, she just wanted to get to know me, and now I know why. But, um, at the time, I just thought- Yeah ... "Well, this is great 'cause she's fantastic, you know?
And I'm being invited to spend time with Dr. Joy. Like, who doesn't want that?" Mm-hmm. And, um, and so then it, I think we met, I don't know, three or four times. And I had told my foundation assistant that I was planning to make this gift. And the foundation assistant said, "Well, we're gonna need the 990. We're gonna need the budget.
We're gonna need, you know, all the things." And so I was like, "Okay." And so I go and ask Joy for those things, and she said, "Hold on."
Yeah. "
You offered me money, and now you're asking me to jump through hoops? Like, I don't want your money."
Sounds, sounds consistent.
Right? Mm-hmm. And I was like, "Well, but..." Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
And I said, "Can you help me understand? Like, I don't understand. Can you help me understand that?" And gratefully, she was generous enough to do that. And so then we sat many more times and got to know each other better, and she explained right relationship to me, and she explained how she, she really helped me understand the strings attached to money, and that, um...
And she, she is, has a high degree of integrity, not going to take money from people that she doesn't trust. And so she said, "If you need this from me, then I, I can't trust you, and I don't want to be in a relationship with you." And I said, "I don't need it." I said, "I get it. I offered the money. I want you to have the money."
I had done my diligence, you know, by, by being in experience with her. And so I went back to my foundation assistant and said, "Nope, we're not doing it." And they freaked out.
Mm-hmm.
And they're like, "But-" This is how it works ... "that's not best practice." Uh-huh. "That's not, that's not how you're supposed to do it, but we, we need this information."
I said, "Do we though, really?" And so that was just a huge unlearning of... And, and that's wealth protection, right? Mm-hmm. Jumping through all those hoops and having the, the data. And to me, this, so what, what that validated was something that I had already felt very, v- in my, through my lived experience very strongly, which is that- Because I was born into this family with this inheritance, I was able to take risks, make mistakes, try things on for size, fail, and nobody cuts my funding.
Mm-hmm.
And so I, my philosophy is, my philanthropic philosophy is I want people to have the money and do with it whatever you choose to do with it. And if, if that looks like failure, failure is the best way to learn, right? Like, you learn more from- Mm-hmm ... from your mistakes than your successes in my opinion.
So it feels like that this was a moment that you began to think about wealth as a broader issue, a social issue, rather than simply being personal or financial. Is that sort of the first encounter with it? Or were you... Was something sitting in you that when you talked with Dr. Joy Lewis, it sort of matched what was sort of eating in your spirit?
The best example I can think of is when I was a teenager, and so my parents are divorced. I'm living four hours away from my dad, and we would, but we would talk on the phone regularly. And my lived experiences at, at that time was my mom, um, my mom was a uber entrepreneur, and everybody knew we were the richest people in town, right?
And I had a car, and I had a, an allowance. And so I, I was always the one driving, and we would sometimes, like my friends and I, the nearest, um, movie theater and fast food was like 20 minutes away. Mm-hmm. Two towns over. Wow. And and so if we, if we wanted to go to the movie, I often paid for the movie. Mm-hmm.
And if, and I, you know, because I had the car and I could buy the gas, you know, I was just facilitating these activities. And I, um, and I felt some kind of way about it because, uh, because of the messaging that comes with inherited wealth, that you're not supposed to talk about it, and that it's dangerous to share, you know, because people will take advantage of you.
And so it didn't jive, right? Like, I wanna spend time with my friends. I wanna go to the movie. My friends wanna go to the movie. If I can afford to pay for the movie, why wouldn't I pay for the movie, right? But then, but then feeling like, well, are they my friend? You know- Yeah. Are you- I was told, I was told that I should worry, are they my friend, because...
And, and I knew- You're
buying friends. Are you buying friends? Yeah. No. Did you buy friends?
No. I knew they were my friends because, I mean, first of all, there weren't very many people.
I only had five people to pick from, so we, we bonded. Yeah.
No, we, we were on sports teams together. Like, we had so much lived experience that- Mm-hmm
that was, that I knew they... And they listened to me, and we cried together, and we went through puberty together. Like, we were friends, right? Yeah. So anyway, but I was, I was saying to my dad that I felt, um, that it, it didn't, it felt unnatural or it felt, you know, whatever, however it felt. And he said to me at that time that, you know, that- I, 'cause I f- I, I felt funny that I had it and they didn't, and why do I have it and they don't?
And, um, and he said, "Well, it just is what it is," and that, you know, "You were born into this family with money, and there, you not spending it isn't going to change-
Their outcome ...
anyone else's outcome. And so, y- you know, y- you should spend it however you see fit because that y- And, but, and at that time it was very soothing to hear that, and so then I felt like, "Okay, my, at least my dad thinks that it's okay for me to make choices and spend it."
And the wealth
line is on your maternal side. M-
yes, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Uh, but now I realize that actually, like, what was missing, and no, you know, I don't mean to, um- drag my dad. But, um, but what was missing is that, is redistribution. Mm. Like, so he was saying, "I, you know, it's mine to make decisions over however I want.
I actually now believe that the accumulation was wrong. And so now I want to redistribute what I don't need." You know, I'm not gonna impoverish myself, but I, but I don't think people need to keep more than they need.
Yeah.
And because it was accumulated in systems that were extractive and oppressive, and on, you know, the backs of, of actual humans and stolen land, like, I don't feel good about holding onto the accumulation and perpetuating it out generation after generation.
Yeah. And so now not only do I feel like I... You know, yes, I think I can take care of myself and spend money. Um, you know, I hope I'm prudent. But, but I also think that I want to die broke, and so I want to redistribute it.
Yeah. Well, I'm thinking about family dynamics, right? Mm-hmm. So you have this awareness- Mm-hmm
that I imagine does not sit across your family. So you're sort of a stranger in familiar land?
I, I, well, I left. Okay. I left the land.
Yeah. And so-
Yeah.
So this is not a non-consequential journey is basically what I'm getting to, right? Mm. Like, you've come into an awareness in a way that is not shared. It's not- Mm-hmm
necessarily how you were raised. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, there is some difference here, which obviously requires real conviction and courage. Mm-hmm. Right? So I just wanna, I wanna go here because your decision to give it away- Mm-hmm ... is more than financial. Mm-hmm. And it, it's had a different consequence. Mm-hmm. Can you say, uh, you know- Well,
I think, well, I think I wanna sort of go back to...
So I, you know, so I, I worked in this building for 25 years, and then I decided I was leaving. Mm-hmm. And so I, I, I had stopped being the portfolio manager, but I was still in oversight, in governance. And, like, I was the trust company chair for seven years. But I, but I learned a lot. I had this money morality shift, and Dr.
Joy was a huge part of it, as well as lots of other learning models, like Just Economy Institute and, you know, lots of things like that. Um, but when I, when I came, it was, it felt a lot like divorce. It's like- Mm ... it's like I'm not a bad person. My family's not bad people. We just don't share values anymore.
And so- I could see that I couldn't take the agency and feel empowered the way I wanted to, and stay in partnership with the rest of my family. So I announced that I was leaving. I thought that it would be this, you know, family relaxed process that I could sort of take my time and figure it out, and that was so wrong.
Mm. Yeah,
they're like, "Yeah, today is your day."
Yes. Okay. It's, it's s- it's like when you- Yeah ... like, if you- Mm-hmm ... if you're let go from a job- Yeah ... they want you out of the building. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I, I w- I didn't anticipate the, um, vote of no confidence- Mm ... that they would feel in my saying that I no longer wanted to participate in this way, and that I kind of became the enemy of the- Mm-hmm
you know, and that, that my saying, "This is how I wanna live, this is how I wanna live. I wanna align my money with my values," that that would be seen as, as criticism.
Yeah.
You know? It actually took a year, and it- Wow ... it took the whole year. I w- it would've been more comfortable if it could've taken less.
But, um, but the exercise of actually extracting myself from those partnerships and from the w- the wealth protection, um, system, uh, was really painful. And, um, and for reasons other... Uh, like, some of it's just math. You know, that the... We were all, all of our money was in the same asset allocation in the investment partnership.
And so, you know, separating what was mine relative to what was everybody else's was, was complicated math. Mm-hmm. Um-
Well, so this is part of what I imagine you're trying to disrupt.
Yes. And-
And it's also how people have been able to commu- uh, accumulate over generations. How much does shame- play into this journey?
I- that's part of the, the inversion of self-worth- Mm ... is shame. Mm-hmm. And, and I think it lands on different people differently, so I don't think everybody feels the way I do, but, but I really struggled from an early age with having something I didn't earn. Mm-hmm. And then being expected to take responsibility for it when it, when I don't understand, you know, how and...
Anyway, so sha- so I think shame, like, really did, um, fuel my perfectionism.
Yeah.
You know? And then, but now, now I feel so liberated. It's a fascinating journey because the fact that my mom moved us to this small town. Mm-hmm. If we had stayed in St. Paul-
Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm ...
and I had stayed in private schools, you know, I would be a different person.
But, so the fact that that happened, unintended, you know, benefit. Mm-hmm. And then we sold the company when I was 28 years old, unintended benefit, and then I worked at the family office and learned all these things, and then I s- I would not have had the agency or the confidence to leave- Mm ... if I hadn't been through all of those things.
Yeah.
And so I think it's... And I, and I recognize that th- that these, these multiple, um, pivotal moments have allowed me to have this money morality shift, and not everybody's gonna have that same. And so my hope is that by being in conversation with other inheritors, I can help them find their money morality shift-
Mm-hmm
if possible, and, or at least recognize that you can't take it with you, and, and-
You cannot take it with you, but then, so this is where I often find myself on either side of this fence, which, um, I have way more context to, to say, to define what that means, but what I'll boil it down to is this tension between legacy and spend down, right?
So you have this great-grandfather. Mm-hmm. He worked, he extracted- Mm-hmm ... he got, he's sharing with his family, right? He's protecting what he did. There are other wealth stories that might look different. They do look different than that.
Mm-hmm.
So how do you reconcile the, the legacy, or separate the legacy from the resources?
Right? Like, to be part of a family, because we're in conversations now around generational wealth. Mm-hmm. Right? Like that, for some communities, that is the goal to do that.
And I support that. And like- So what- But I
feel like- What part are you disrupting then? S-
so I, I want to disrupt the- The
white people part.
The, all, yeah, the white people part. Yeah, no. Yeah. The people who ha- People ... who were able to accumulate-
Because they-
In, in an, in the oppressive extractive system. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And now, like I feel like people who were marginalized by that should have all the opportunity- Mm ... to catch up, you know? Mm-hmm. But if we don't dismantle the systems, it'll never work.
Yeah.
So let- let's assume- But I,
but you said separate the legacy- Yeah, yeah ... from the money.
Yeah.
Like, that's what now I feel so liberated by. And that, there's another story.
Yeah, tell.
So, um, uh, so I was a fellow of the Just Economy Institute, which is, um, a really incredible organization that does, it's a cohort learning model.
Um, and they are basically creating financial activists to deploy capital toward- Mm-hmm ... a more just economy. Most of the people who, um, who attend are fundraisers, investment professionals, you know, people adjacent to capital. Mm-hmm. In my cohort, I was the only, like, inheritor of my kind. It turned out by the end that there were other people who had trust funds, and it was like, "What?"
Mm-hmm. Like, why didn't we know this from the start? But, um, I was in the Just Economy cohort during the year that I was leaving Family Partnerships. There was another, like, they, the family office imposed a fee for leaving. Which we had created 10 years prior when my, one of my cousins was married to somebody who was really, um, disruptive, and we realized that we needed an exit strategy or an exit policy, and so we created this, um, uh, withdrawal policy that included a fee, and it was, when it was designed 10 years ago, it was really punitive.
I mean, we were all terrified and, and so it was, it was done in a mindset of protection and, and punishment. And we were supposed to ratify it every year. Mm-hmm. And we had not looked at that document in 10 years, and then I say I wanna leave, and they impose this policy that we have not looked at in 10 years.
And so it included a fee, and I think it was like a million and a half. And so, um, I was angry about that, and I thought, "This is not, this doesn't make any sense. Like, why, why should I have to pay this fee? We have..." It's not... Like, I... And so I was considering, like, do I need to, like, get, you know, lawyer up Yeah
you know, against my family? I didn't wanna do that, but I, on principle, I was really, like, struggling with that. And Akaya Windwood is, uh, one of, was the facilitator of Just Economy Institute, and she is an amazing human. And, um, and so sh- she and I had a conversation, and I was struggling with, like, you know, d- wanting...
'Cause I, I wanted to get all the money out so that it ha- I'd have more to give, right? So leaving, you know, leaving a million and a half behind felt like, but that money shouldn't, you know, they don't need it. Mm-hmm. You know? And I want it. So like, and so I- They
don't need it ... it was-
But they wanted it. They wanted it.
And it was a protection.
Exactly. Mm-hmm. And, and so I was feeling like I gotta get ev- I gotta squeeze every drop out that I can, and she was like, "No, you don't." Mm-hmm. "That is not your value." And I was like, "Well, but what do you mean?" Yeah. And she said, "No, Catherine, your value is in your ability to leave- Mm
and tell your story about it."
Yeah.
And that was like, oh.
Oh,
yeah. Like, I hadn't- The chill
code, yeah.
Like, in the, I mean, in that moment, of course, I started crying, and I was just like, "I have a value- Mm-hmm ... outside of the money?"
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. And like, this es- this esteemable act has value. Yeah. So that was huge.
And, um- And so now the tears that come now are not shame.
Yeah.
They're, they're exhaustion and sadness- ... and perseverance and liberation. Mm. And now, 'cause now, now that I have, now that I'm free of this system and I get to make decisions on my own, it's amazing. Like, I... And now I recognize the privilege. The privilege, it...
Like, I can't take away from the, the system that allowed me to be born into this- Mm-hmm ... into these legal structures. But the privilege is taking my agency and feeling empowered to do with it what I see fit, which is to give it to community. I would love to get back to the... So private foundation, like, I have a strong opinion Yeah
about private foundation. And I left mine. You know, I spent my... I didn't take that with me. I spent it down- Mm-hmm ... in order to leave. Because to me, and, and I wanna differentiate, private foundation meaning, uh, what I'm talking about is, is private family foundation.
Yeah.
Like, Saint Paul Foundation is different.
Women's Foundation is different. Headwaters Foundation- Mm ... different. You know, community foundations that are, that have programming and are actively creating systems change, you know, I want them to be endowed.
Yeah, yeah.
Private families that come from an operating company don't need to be endowed. Mm. The operating company is their endowment.
Yeah. You
know? And when I think about foundations that- Like, here in Minnesota, there are some really big foundations, not to name names- Mm-hmm ... that started as individual donors-
Mm ...
connected to large operating companies. Mm. And that those have grown and grown and grown doesn't make sense to me, 'cause that's the community's money.
Yeah, so if we do, if they do a spend down, have you examined how that would impact the future of community work?
So what I question, I don't have the answers- Mm-hmm ... but when people talk about, like, the, the cost of spend down, are we not considering, or is it possible that we're not considering all the foundations that are being created?
Mm. Mm-hmm.
And so I just don't, I don't... It's not... Like, there are new foundations being created all the time. Right. And then, and if you've l- seen the graph of- Mm ... the amount of money held in private foundations, and it's, it's an increasing curve.
Yeah.
And that, but, and so fundamentally, so my, the problem I see, and I don't have the answers, but the problem I see is that when a donor contributes to a private foundation and they take the tax break- That's the, that should be the end of it.
Mm-hmm. And so that money doesn't belong to them. It belong, you know- Yeah, for community be- ... it's stewarded by- Yeah,
community benefit ...
stewarded by the, the foundation- Mm ... but it belongs to the public interest. Mm. And if that money is sitting in private foundation and only spending out 5%, then the, the money in foundations grows, and grows, and grows.
And so obviously I have a problem with the 5% rule. I think it should be higher.
Mm.
And so if, if it were higher such that the amount of money in private foundations was, was maintained, that money would be... The, what that, the implication- Yeah ... of that would be that money would be in community- Mm-hmm ... and be in the hands of the people who are adjacent to the problems, you know, who know how to fix them.
Yeah. So there's rightful critique of the field of philanthropy and, uh, folks that have a real commitment towards ending sort of the wealth hoarding, right? Mm-hmm. The hoarding. Mm-hmm. You separated out community foundations because obviously I'm leading one, and I feel a little really different about the donor-advised funds that we have, but that is one of the critiques, right?
Mm-hmm. That... And this is where the legacy piece comes in for me because on average those funds are about 150K. Mm-hmm. Right? They're not... Like, they see the accumulation and not the individual- Mm ... families that are, you know, working hard to be charitable, want their kids to be charitable. Usually it doesn't go multiple generations.
Sometimes people use it to spend down in their retirement, and then there are examples of other providers. Mm-hmm. But how... You know, I think, I guess my question is, is a, a lot of times people see philanthropy as a field, as one field doing the same thing. Mm-hmm. And you're really laying out that it is very different.
It's very different. Yeah. What, what nuances do you think, um, people that maybe are less familiar should understand?
I am particularly, um- Attuned to the hoarding.
Yeah. Yeah.
You know, I, I have r- strong feelings about the hoarding that happens in private foundation and donor-advised funds are, uh, I can go on and on about my problems with donor-advised funds.
Um, not everywhere, you know? I don't, I have, haven't studied how you guys do it at the Saint Paul Foundation, but I really, I think the way the min- the Women's Foundation does donor-advised funds makes sense to me.
Mm-hmm.
Um, I, but it's the notion that, like, I have come to the realization that I have more than I need, and, and I feel very strongly that, you know, uh, stockpiling for a rainy day, it's raining.
It's... Yeah. Uh,
yeah. Like, if it's not raining today, like, what does rain look like?
Mm-hmm.
And so I, that's where, where I, I have become so passionate about redistributing the wealth that I don't need, and I feel very frustrated about the money that is stockpiled in private foundations that's growing and growing and growing.
Yeah. Yeah. And donor-advised funds are, you know, gratefully, the, the national average is over 5%, but it wouldn't have to be. And, like, the, the bank-held, you know, the f- charitable arms of banks that hold donor-advised funds, there is no incentive for that money to get spent out. Mm. And so to me, like, I don't think the general public understands or possibly doesn't understand the, the disincentives that are built into those systems, that the people, that the, especially the charitable arms of banks, the people benefiting from that accumulated wealth in the donor-advised funds are just the money managers.
It's just the people taking fees, you know? And, and then they get to brag about assets under management. And so there is no incentive for that money to go down, and that money belongs- Mm ... to the public interest. Yeah. To the common good.
Yeah. I think that, I think that that makes sense. I also think that there's a continuum, right?
Like, the, the amount you're talking about is, is, could be different than- Mm-hmm ... what-
Yeah ...
someone else is talking about. So this, this, um, transfer of wealth, um, you know, women becoming inheritors, sometimes it's, you know, a lot of times it's through someone's passing, as you just mentioned. Mm-hmm. And here they come.
Their, their parents lived modest lives and did well, right? Maxed their retirement. Mm-hmm. You know, pass away, they got a million, a couple million dollars- Mm-hmm ... or whatever in the bank, but they've never had conversations about money, wealth, and maybe- Mm-hmm ... even being charitable. Mm-hmm. Like, what advice do you have- Yeah
for the women that are coming into inherited wealth- Yeah ... at whatever level?
I, so I have a, a gripe.
Okay.
With, um- And it's, uh, only 1.3% of Americans, uh, um, claim to be beneficiary of a trust. But do they know? Because there are a lot of parents who will create trusts for their children when their children are young- Mm-hmm
and not tell them.
Yeah.
And so then adults will say things like, "Well, I, I stand to inherit," or, "I, I will inherit when..." And I, I think there's a great likelihood, and so to me it's a nuance, but the language, no, you are an inheritor. Mm. When they establish that trust, you became an inheritor, and the fact that you don't know about it is part of wealth protection.
Mm. Mm-hmm. You know? And so I think the same hoarding is happening Using estate planning and trusts. Mm. Because if you think about, so people are stockpiling money in a trust, and then putting parameters on that trust that the, that the beneficiary doesn't get any agency over it until they're 25, 30, 40, you know, depending on how they...
And so that money, the beneficiary, like when I was 18 and they sat me down at a table, and they pointed at the bottom of the spreadsheet and said, "This is what you're worth," that was all money in trust.
Mm.
And so I, I'm grateful that they told me I was an inheritor at 18, and what the heck was I gonna... I, I have a worth?
Yeah. You know? But so there's somewhere in between. Mm. And so w- when parents create trusts for their children, I wish that they would talk to their children. If they're old enough to talk to them about it, I wish they would. And then if you have adult children and you have put money in trust for them, let them know, because they, they might plan differently.
They might ask for agency over it, and wouldn't you rather, like... So I guess- Mm ... the, the equation to me is if this money is sitting there for some future date, but it's raining today-
Yeah, why not use it? ... and
why not let them have some agency over how it's deployed? Mm-hmm. You know, maybe they, maybe young people today might choose to invest in climate change work rather than, you know, know that they have this stockpiled wealth for some future date that we don't even know- Yeah
what's happening. I don't think there's a one-size fit, fits all. Yeah. I don't think there's even... And there's a lot of, in, I'm in a relationship with other women inheritors who have children, and we've talked about, like, how do you talk to your children? How do you, how do you do it better? You know, how do we, how do we make it better?
And my philosophy is that you, at age appropriately, engage your children. Yeah. You know? And it's a part of parenting. And that my philosophy was always if they asked questions, I'd answer honestly. Mm-hmm. And then, and so I, I just want them to be a part of the process. I want them to have agency as soon as they can.
And so, and, and then you have to, you, y- there, you know, h- how the trust is built, if I was, if I had the opportunity to build new trusts- Mm-hmm ... you know, I would, I would take each child into consideration. Some kids, you know, money burns a hole in their pocket. Other kids, you know, my daughter as an example, she is a workaholic, and she, she spends, but she, like she has real, like, consternation- Mm
about what she spends money on. Yeah. And, and she knows she has more than she needs. Like, and so it's just a personality. You know, it's like- Mm-hmm ... it's, and so you have to meet the kid where they are.
Yeah. So you have been writing. So you, you've gone through this thing of Trying to understand and grapple with what you weren't entitled to, right?
Feeling like you didn't deserve it. To your mother making a move that modeled for you, that put you in an environment. Then you made a decision, right? You left the island.
Mm-hmm.
And you've gone from a place of making a bunch of personal decisions, right? Activating your personal agency, to now writing about it.
Mm-hmm. Why? Why, why? Why are you writing about it?
Well, one answer is, um, it was really... I mean, I'm c- I don't, I'm not saying this for sympathy, but it was really hard. Mm. I mean, and I, I suppose people can imagine why it was hard, but making the choice was difficult, and then actually doing it was really difficult.
And I have lost relationships. And so... And it sort of, it feels like, like I, I ha- liken things to childbirth.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. You know? And, uh, you know, it was, it was a labor-intensive and emotionally draining process, and I feel like that can't be for nothing. You know? Or it can't be just for me. Yeah. Like, I feel like there's...
And I think that's what Akaya was trying to say, like- I wanna draw people onto the path, you know? And, and it's... Not everybody has the, the tools and the things that fall into place the way they did for me, but can I be... Can I support other people to align their wealth with their values? Mm-hmm. And you touched on the, the, the wealth transfer, you know?
Yeah. And everybody's talking about the greatest wealth transfer. Well, I honestly think that i- if we do nothing, just by virtue of the fact that baby boomer men are dying before their spouses, and so the spouses might have more agency over the accumulated wealth. Because they're women, it's going to be the greatest redistribution.
Mm. Like, that's what I'm manifesting, and if we can encourage that, wouldn't that be amazing? Yeah. Like, this is trillions of dollars that could be deployed as opposed to, uh, perpetuated along bloodlines.
Yeah. And so
that's
what I'm trying to encourage. When did, when did I meet you?
In '21-ish.
2021? Something
like that.
Were you still on the island?
Yeah. I left the island in '23.
So you were on, you were on the, on the journey. This makes sense to me now.
Yeah, I was not-
I understand more now ... the same person when we met. No, you're not. I get it now. I see. So you feel- No ... more at ease right now? I
do. I... Don't... Can't you see it? I, I
can.
I'm
so much more confident today. You came in with a little... You- Right? ... tight. Right? But, like, I... Yeah. But curious. Five years ago, fi- But
curious. Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. I think I could see. I had been, I had been engaging with the community, and I could see the problems m- more- Mm ... firsthand. Um, I could see the wealth protection, I just didn't know how to identi- I didn't know the name.
Yeah, I didn't know the language, and now I've got all this great language.
Awesome. So, you know, we got listeners that, um, are probably trying to figure out how to pay rent.
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Right? And I don't know. There's a relatability to the story that I think if you listen beyond the trust and the inheritance to gender difference, to having agency over your own life and your decisions, being able to have a choice, like family, families that you were born into where you don't perhaps share- Values
v- a value or a future in the same way as they might have collectively identified, right? Being able to be an individual within a family, right? Like, I think these are all very relatable points. It's,
it's a human condition.
It is a human condition, and yet wealth does change things. Mm-hmm. And so you have people that are like, "Oh, okay, so you got a bunch of money.
You decided you didn't want it." I mean, isn't that a great choice? Right. Isn't that a option? Yeah. Right? An option that maybe I'll never know, and, you know... But the story is so much bigger, and I don't know if it's always an amount- Mm-hmm ... that- Gets assigned to being grounded in value, being grounded in generosity, um, and perhaps even educating and communicating around wealth or income in ways that maybe you did not learn.
Mm-hmm.
So anything to the folks that maybe don't have the background you have?
Yeah. You know, I, um, part of the cost of this is, like, I might, I might look at this when it airs and cringe.
Possible.
And, um, and- It's
unlikely.
To me, to me that if... Like, I reserve the right to look back and cringe because that means I'm still learning and growing.
Mm-hmm. And in no way am I looking for sympathy. You know, I... This is not a pretty little rich girl story. This is an em- a story of empowerment and that, that no matter where you are on the financial spectrum, if you are feeling like you are not, if you're, if you're feeling like there's a lack of transparency, you're being stripped of your agency and you're being disempowered, that's...
Nobody wants that, and I don't want that for anybody. Mm-hmm. And so I... But I'm a, I'm a doer, and I'm, I like to fix things. And so I've spent a lot of time in the last five years working on what is mine to do, and what is my sphere of influence? And this is what I've decided is mine to do and my sphere of influence.
And so I actu- I recognize that I'm not... My story may not land on some people in a useful way. Mm-hmm. And, and that has to be okay because I can't be everything for everyone, but if my story lands on another woman who has more than she needs, and I can encourage her to give more, that's my, that's mine to do.
But so, uh, but back to the people who are trying to pay rent, like, I, I just think it, this winter was such a both/and, right? Like horrifyingly tragic what happened in Minnesota, and then the silver lining is that community came together. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it was really, that was very, that was part of, that was, I will...
This, you know, 10 years from now, that will be a pivotal moment where I, I was really finally like, "Ooh, mutual aid."
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Like, forget philanthropy. Yeah. Mutual aid. Yeah. And, and so, um, I just hope that the people who have more than they need can see that the engagement that happened in Minnesota this winter was really about community coming together and being there for each other, and that people who d- are, are struggling to pay rent, I hope they have community and that, you know.
And I, I feel like, um, well, well, I could go off on a whole nother tangent about the perceived scarcity mindset that led to this winter, you know? That, that this notion that somehow in this country of abundance we don't have enough for everybody, and that we should kick people out. Like, give me a break, right?
And so, um- So I'm, I, I think community is the way, and relationships are the way Mm-hmm And, and we ... So I'm, I'm hopeful that I can encourage more people to be in their community and help people out.
Yeah. I love that. Okay, so I have, um, one more question for you, which I think will circle back to where we started, which is, um, you are a beneficiary of a great grandparent.
So when your great-grandchildren-
Great-great, actually.
Great-great. When your great-greats- ... or your future generations that you will never meet or may never arrive, but let's say they arrived, look back at this moment, what do you hope that they will see that we did? Not necessarily just you, but, like, we. Mm-hmm
Okay, this might not be the right...
Maybe it'll lead me to a better answer. Yeah. Yeah. But, um, so I have a therapist.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, I wish everybody- Yeah ... could afford therapy. Yeah. Um-
The world would be a better
place. Yeah. And I, in the process of, of leaving the island, Mm-hmm ... I think that's a funny metaphor, um, I was... I, I have grappled and I will continue to grapple with, you know, and, and redistributing the wealth.
I can't... The, legally I can't touch the, um, the money that's in trust for my children, so it's a both and. Like, I'm pissed that I didn't have any choice about it, and it's protected. Yeah. So the, you know, so to, to some degree, like, so, but, but if I don't give away all of what I have agency over, they would get more, you know?
And so I was sort of grappling with, "Are they gonna be mad at me?" Mm. That they, you know, that I'm not... You know, are they gonna be, you know, protectors of wealth and feel like I, you know, did something wrong? And so my therapist and I played that out, and the, first of all, my grandchildren don't exist and may not.
Like, I expect my two children might have children, but you d- you just don't know, you know? But if they, by some chance, had children that then looked back at today at, and what their gran- what their grandmother did, and were mad about it, like, then they're horrible people.
And my, and I wouldn't want them to have the money.
Yeah. Yeah. You know? That's funny. That's
funny. And so I feel like, you know, I, there's nothing to lose. Like- Mm ... I, and I think the moral of the story is that these lessons and this moral, money morality shift that I've had, really, I feel like a better person.
And so- Yeah ... like, I did not feel like a good person- Mm ... when I was grappling with the, the mind , you know? Yeah. Of like, and so now, now I, now I'm taking the agency, and I see what my power is, and that's the privilege.
Yeah. There's something about being a liberated woman, yes?
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Yeah. And it took you a l- a, a bit of life- Years
to get there. But, um, it is one thing to be so clear for you to even make a statement that way, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I'm leading through a value that is different, and if they don't get the value-
Mm-hmm ...
they don't deserve-
They don't, then I don't, why am I perpetuating money for them?
Yeah.
Yeah. Uh, then I'm with the woman who's like, "Their inheritance was spent"- Yeah
"and they can take it from here." They can take it from here. As
we close, anything else you wanna share, where people can find your writing? Um, anything, anything you wanna share. Well,
so inherinterest.com is my, um, initiative to try to... And it's really, it's, I'm inviting women into conversation. I'm not a legal expert, I'm not a estate planner, I'm not a financial advisor.
I'm just having conversations, just sharing, being in a relationship and sharing stories in hopes that some of what I've been through can empower them to also be courageous. And- Mm-hmm ... in, and you know, and I'm not, um, I'm transparent about the, my ultimate goal is for people to give away more money. Mm-hmm.
Yeah. Um, so they can find me there. And, um, uh, I have, um, there's an article in The Chronicle of Philanthropy from last September. Um, and, uh, and then now in, uh, Modern Women and on Medium. I'm, I have other publications submitted, hoping to get them, uh, out there. Mm-hmm. And, uh, yeah, maybe one day I'll achieve, um, an agent and publish a book.
But
Okay. Well, we got that in the universe, folks. So we'll be waiting on it.
And yeah, let me know if, um, if people wanna hear it. I, I'm hopeful that I, that my story appeals to a wide audience. I know it's not for everyone. But, um, but I think the, the, really what my goal is to pull back the curtain on wealth protection, and I think everyday humans will benefit from understanding these protections because we all can fight them if we know they exist.
Yeah, I mean, I imagine that most people will land on, we should not be protecting wealth.
Yeah.
Right? So even- Yeah ... you know, hope, there's, you know, if you're really listening, um, to people, I think there's always an opportunity to find a place of relatability. Mm-hmm. And, um, I thank you for sharing, um, in the way that you have, and just in deep appreciation for the way that you are grappling with- Um, your life.
Like, you know, sometimes, and I think, I think we all know when, um... You know, I was talking to Ron Heifetz, who wrote Leadership on the Line. Mm. And we were talking about racism, and Ron said something to the effect of, you know, it becomes really hard when the person that taught you to ride the bike later becomes a person you understand taught you racist things.
Mm-hmm.
Right? That when you are dealing with these type of structural issues, they're not just structural, they're family. Mm-hmm. And they're people that raised you or raised your parents, that taught you other things that are really great.
Mm-hmm.
Um, taught you lessons in life, that they deposited what they had into you.
And so being able to separate- Mm ... that, um, becomes way more layered than what I think people understand. And so I'm just saying that to say thank you for sort of going through the layers. Um, anybody listening or watching can sort of see the, the passion and the emotion behind it, and I just am very, very grateful that you chose to come on the podcast to have this conversation, so thank you.
I am exceptionally grateful. I've always been a fan, since day one. And, um, the opportunity to say all these things out loud is really important to me, and, uh, thank you.
Thank you for listening to Conversations with Chanda, hosted by me, Chanda Smith Baker, President and CEO of the Saint Paul & Minnesota Foundation.
To hear more conversations with change-makers, visit conversationswithchanda.com, conversations with C-H-A-N-D-A.com, or find us on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to learn more about the work at the foundation, please visit spmcf.org.