Chanda Smith Baker: Adren, how many years have I been trying to get you on this podcast?
Adren Wilson: Four years. Uh, and maybe it was divine intervention that it happens today, right?
Chanda Smith Baker: Oh, you're always so positive.
That's one way to look at it, right? I, um, I'm actually really looking forward to this conversation, 'cause I feel like we're sitting in, like, a leadership... Like, so many leadership moments we've experienced together, actually.
Adren Wilson: We, we have many, many over the years. Uh, how long have we known each other? It's going on 12 years.
13 years. Something like that.
Chanda Smith Baker: Really?
Adren Wilson: It's been a long time. Um, and I've marveled at, at every step of your leadership journey the whole way, so very cool.
Chanda Smith Baker: I will say, like, there's a few people in my life, like, if I call them and I need a little boost, I know for sure you're gonna boost me up. You're gonna be like, "When you running for governor?
When you, when, when, what you doing next? You, you need to be the first female governor." Like, you have been on me for that.
Adren Wilson: Waiting for the answer. Uh, you know, I know there are many in your community that want you in, um, a more public, uh, facing roles. Uh, you know, it, it's rare, um, actually, Chanda, when you can meet someone that is as grounded, um, as you are.
Um, but, but can communicate the needs of community, um, and has decided to stay in community. Um, too many times, I think, in our lives, uh, we go out and get a little education, um, our, our bank account grows a little bit, and, um, we think it's just the natural course of things to, um, move away from our people.
And, uh, what I've always loved about you from the mo- first moment I met you, is that you stay grounded, um, in community with our people, and I just think that's really important.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. I appreciate that. I think we share that. That's probably why we're kindred spirits.
Adren Wilson: Yeah, 'cause you know I can't let my people go, okay?
That's why-
Chanda Smith Baker: Can
Adren Wilson: I ... I always figure out a way to be in grassroots, down in community in Louisiana. And so, uh, it's just so important that, uh, we understand who we are. Um, deeply understand who we are, and the purpose that, uh, we've kind of been given, um, in this life.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. You wanna talk about how we met?
Adren Wilson: Oh my goodness, that's a story that, that we're gonna put, um, in the public space.
Chanda Smith Baker: I mean, we don't have to do all the parts, but you can talk about the organ- you can talk about whatever you wanna talk about. I'm a open book. I
Adren Wilson: don't know. We, we can, we can talk about it. So, so if I remember correctly, you were on the board of directors at an organization that we both love, uh, Public Allies.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yep.
Adren Wilson: And I got, um, into the interview process, uh, to replace the longstanding CEO. I think Paul had been there 19 years. Um, and I would, if gotten the opportunity, would've been the first, uh, Black man to lead the organization. And, uh, I remember getting into the interview process and, um, it just got very interesting.
Um, many... Is that, is that a good way to like-
Chanda Smith Baker: That's a very good way, and our, our Minnesotans understand that word.
Adren Wilson: There were many, there were many hoops to jump through that, um, just didn't feel authentic and real for me, um, to honor. And, um, and you will remember I, uh, respectfully and politely, um, withdrew my name from the process.
Um, and that's how we first met actually, going through, going through that process together. Uh-
Chanda Smith Baker: We did ...
Adren Wilson: you were-
Chanda Smith Baker: And I re- I respectfully declined to- You deciding to remove yourself from the process
Adren Wilson: Yes, yes, yes. So that, that's the piece that your listeners and viewers will love, is that, um, you are a woman of, um, great integrity, and when you have a point of view, you have a point of view.
And so two weeks later, uh, you called me up on behalf of the board and said, "Brother, you're not getting out of the process." And, um, I'm eternally grateful, um, for your leadership voice, um, because, um, what, what you role model for me is that leadership truly is an action.
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm. It
Adren Wilson: really is an action. And whenever you hold a belief, whenever you hold a vision, um, you've demonstrated to me that it's nothing without action.
You have to act on it. And I'm just so grateful that you placed that call that day because it's just been, um, a beautiful journey with you, a beautiful friendship with you. Um, many laughs and, and some teary-
Chanda Smith Baker: Laughs ...
Adren Wilson: uh, because that is life, right? It's this- Mm ... this journey of these beautiful, beautiful mountaintop experiences.
Um, and when you're on the mountaintop, I tell people all the time, um, it will be a matter of time before you have some valley moments. And, um, and Chanda, I will tell you, as I've gotten older, I'm gonna say I'm 26. No, you know I'm a little older than that. Uh-
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, yeah ...
Adren Wilson: um, but, but as I've gotten older, I've began to appreciate the valley moments too.
I didn't always appreciate 'em. And now my advice to people is when you're in the valley moment, sit down That's, you know, 'cause sometimes when we get in the valley moment, we're, we're trying to climb back up to the mountaintop. And, and now I tell people, "Sit down a while-
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah ... just
Adren Wilson: in the valley moment." Um, because there's just some deep learning sometimes that happens when you're in that valley.
And, um, and then when you're back on the mountaintop, I just think you have a greater appreciation, um-
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah ...
Adren Wilson: on the mountaintop. Uh.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. You know, so I brought up, um, the Public Allies experience. One is because, um, you started with sort of staying with community, and I think that is or- organization that, um, really communicated that, like, leadership happens at every level.
Right. And sometimes it's around where you went to school or where you live or what you look like that indicates who's a leader and who's not. And it's an organization that creates pathways for people to live and, and lead, um, and lead fully and, and works to prepare them. And I think that was a bonding moment for us, um, because of that belief.
But I think secondly, when I did make that phone call, I didn't actually, I wasn't actually prompting you to tell that story, but more of like who Public Allies is. But what I would say is that when I said, "I really would like you to stay in," I remember you saying, "And if I, if I do, then you're making a commitment of supporting me."
Adren Wilson: That, that, that is what I do, yes.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right? But this is like this, this accountability of asking for what you need and saying, you know, "If we're gonna do it, then we're gonna be in partnership." And I think for me, that was also a, a lesson of being able to say explicitly, without hesitation, "This is what I need in order to be successful."
Right? Not agreement, but stay in partnership with me.
Adren Wilson: Yeah, yeah. And, and, and you and I both being people of color that have gone through leadership, and I would say you being a Black woman going through leadership is probably even more intense, because I still carry the priv- privilege of being a male, um, in, in leadership.
Uh, but, but we have to figure out, and, and it's really important that we cultivate accountability. Um, even in, um, you know, uh, Black leadership, Brown leadership, like Native leadership. Um, we have to not be afraid of that.
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm. Uh,
Adren Wilson: and, and we just gotta be honest and open with one another. Um, too many times I think, right, like the, the, the notion of leadership, we're fighting over dollars and, and all these things and, and it pits us against each other.
Yeah. When we should be able to have like very direct conversations about, um, I see you, I respect you, I'm a... I, I admire your leadership, and, and, and when we're in partnership, this is what I'm gonna need to be successful.
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm. Um,
Adren Wilson: be very transparent and open about that. So I appreciate you naming that. Um-
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Actually, you just brought up a memory, 'cause we had another moment where there was somebody that was, um, moving into a role, and- ... I had an immediate opinion. And you're, you were basically like, "Calm down." Like, "Kick back." And like, like, "Are you showing up in your best self?" I'm like, "I thought I was until you told me otherwise."
Adren Wilson: No, no, no, no, no. But isn't that beautiful, though, when you actually respect people and love people, that you can be honest with them? Um, because the beauty of me being able to say that to you is because I trust you, you trust me. I know your heart. Um, I know how you move in intention in life. And when you have that bond with someone, um, it's the most powerful bond.
Because there will be days when I don't show up well, and I'm guided by, um, some emotion that's just creeping up maybe from my past or something that I'm afraid of. And, and you've done the same for me, to be like, "Bruh, bruh, what?" Like, it's-
Chanda Smith Baker: I'm gonna say I'm about to text you. Yeah. So let's talk about these valley moments though, because I think they both go hand in hand, because I guess my question for you is how long in your leadership before you realized, one...
So what, what, like there's three things that's in my head. One is, like, trusting your own voice-
Adren Wilson: Okay ...
Chanda Smith Baker: and your own intuition, right? Because there was something that wasn't sitting right.
Adren Wilson: Yeah. Let me just say, it is difficult to get to a place of trusting your own voice. Um, but, but anyway, go ahead. You said three things.
I, I just wanna make sure
Chanda Smith Baker: I hit them. So no, let's go there, like trusting your own voice. Why, why do you feel like it's so difficult?
Adren Wilson: I, for me, um, and, and, you know, uh, I, I'm not trying to get on your, your, your, uh, podcast and cry, but, uh, when you are socialized, um, in the ways that I grew up, um, and I, you know, I will tell your, your audience that, you know, I grew up in extreme poverty in rural Louisiana, um, you know, with a single mom, didn't have indoor plumbing or running water in any home that I lived in till I was about 12 or 13 years old.
Um, even though my mother was a praying Black woman and a powerful force, and she loved me with everything in her being, I still had to go out into the world, and going out into the world in that rural context in the, in the late '80s into the '90s, right? Um, where everyone in that community that had means, um, when I say means, like had a house, and had a car, and, you know, had, um, economic mobility, um, did not look like me.
And all the people that look like me, um, were in the same trapped situation of extreme poverty. And so, so even though I was getting the love and the inspiration and the joy from my mom, it did help balance some of the reality of the world, but the world was still communicating to me that because of who I was, I didn't matter.
I didn't have worth. Um, I didn't have value. Um, and that's one of the powerful things about, I think, education, because it wasn't until I really started to lean into reading and education that I was like, "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. There are a whole lot of fancy Black folk in the world" Right.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right ...
Adren Wilson: um, that are educated, that are moving and shaping our world, that, that I really started to understand and try to balance that out.
But because when you are, um, a child, and we all can reflect back to our childhood and moments that kinda, like, created something in us that's with us, um, a- actually until the day we die, and we're always trying to figure out, negotiate with that, that child in us, right? Mm-hmm. And how we cope with that child, especially where it comes to things that, um, are not love, are not self-love-
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm
Adren Wilson: not valuable, don't, don't feed us in ways that we need to be fed. And so, um, so even to this day, right, I can slip into, talk about leadership voice, I can slip into a moment of imposter syndrome or, or any of that stuff, right? And y- you know my bio, right? I've, I worked for two governors. Um, I'm, I'm really, uh, privileged now to work at the Obama Foundation.
Um, have a PhD, went to Southern University, went to Harvard University, went to LSU. So I've done a whole lot of things, but, right, there can be moments that I'm triggered that, like, like, pull me back to that five-year-old young brother trying- Mm ... to navigate his kindergarten class because his teacher is white and saying really ugly things to him.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. Yeah. And we don't really forget those moments, do we? Hmm?
Adren Wilson: We don't forget those moments. They stay with us. Even though, again, we, we learn how to process them well, we learn how to put them in the appropriate place in our lives, but, but, you know, we are human beings, and human beings remember emotion.
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm.
Adren Wilson: Right? Like, I, I, I think about this all the time about how through an experience, if you attach emotion to it, it's with you for the rest of your life. Um-
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah ...
Adren Wilson: and, and I tell these young people who are so ambitious and driving and, you know, um, they achieve one thing and they're off to the next, and I sometimes say, "Slow down.
'Cause if you don't experience this and attach emotion to it, you will look back 15 years from now and not remember it and not understand the importance of this moment."
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: Ran through it. And so, so it's emotion, right? Like, we're, we're wired around, um, uh, you know, emotion and how it impacts us. Uh, you know, and some will, will call what I'm describing trauma.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: But, but I, but I don't call it trauma. Like, it's just the same thing with happiness, the emotion of happiness. Mm-hmm. When we're really, like, experience that deeply and sincerely, it's with us, um, for the rest of our lives, and we can pull on that.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. I mean, I think the other thing I was thinking about is who you surround yourself by and who you listen to.
Adren Wilson: Wow.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right? Because part of that emotion or experience or trauma or whatever will inform your ability to trust other people to say what you need- Yeah ... to tell people what you're observing, right? And so I know that I've benefited from, and we're talking about how we have held each other accountable, um, that is, for some people, more of an act of courage than what I think may be recognized.
Adren Wilson: Yes. Uh, it is for all the reasons that you and I both know, right? Um, that, that... And what our mamas told us, right? Like, even though your, your mama was in, in Minneapolis, and my mama was in rural Louisiana, um, you know, I'm gonna use the phrase a baby, and I know your mama in some way said, "Baby, you can't trust everybody."
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-mm. You don't go to s- you don't go to work to be friends with them people.
Adren Wilson: Everybody, e- it got good intentions for you, baby, right? And so, so because, um, of that, that good wisdom, I'm gonna say really good wisdom, because when you think about the era that your mom grew up in, the era that my mom grew up in, um, they had to equip us to protect ourselves-
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah
Adren Wilson: out into the world. And still we're not able to fully protect us because of what I just talked about, like some of the, the stuff I still carry, um, this day. Um, but it is an act of courage. Uh, it really is to, like, open yourself enough that you can form a really strong trust bond. Um, and then the other act of courage is, um, because we're human beings, when that person lets you down, or dare I say when that person betrays you, because it's happened to me many times in my journey, um, are you courageous enough to like, uh, exhale and say, "But if I'm gonna have love and joy and, and, and true friendship in my life, I gotta open myself again."
Chanda Smith Baker: Right.
Adren Wilson: Have the experience. Mm. Um, so it's acts of courage over and over and over.
Chanda Smith Baker: Man. Okay, so another act of courage. So you, um, step out of your home situation. Like, you might understand the challenges of something that you might be experiencing, but it also was very hard to move away from what's familiar.
And so you stepped in, you mentioned you, you first Black man, f- Black person to run Public Allies. Like, even being the first demands some level of courage to even say, "I'm willing to do that." So talk about the courage of, I don't know, moving yourself to places that maybe you did not envision.
Adren Wilson: Yeah, uh I think the more I learn, the more maybe I reconcile this notion of first.
Like when I think about like being the first at Public Allies, um, I think the first... And I'm just gonna be transparent now. I think one of the reasons I didn't l- want to jump through some of those hoops when I initially got in the interview process, but the other thing was I was like, "Are they ready? Is this organization actually ready?"
You know, beautiful values. Um, I love the young people, the focus on young people of color, and the pipeline to leadership, and all of that just really deeply resonated with me. Um, but when you have a board of directors that's saying, "Wow, now we're gonna try to live out our values and have that embodied in the leader that we select."
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: And, and frankly, I think when I first got into that process, I was like, "Mm, I'm not sure they're ready." And then when you called me back, I had to gain peace with, well, then even if they're not ready, I can be a transitional leader that paves a path for many others behind me.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: Right. And I, I think I've reconciled that, that sometimes you gotta be willing.
It's not sacrifice. Mm. 'Cause there, there are benefits. Like, there have been... Me leading this national organization that was in tw- at the time 26 cities, I gained incredible experience, incredible knowledge, in, in, you know, ways of understanding the world that before I took that role I, I did not have. So there was benefit, right?
So I'm not gonna say, you know, you sacrificed yourself. There was benefit. There was self-benefit to, to being the first, to being in that leadership role. But I also will be clear, uh, right, that, that it takes a toll on you. Um, any leadership role is a lonely role, but when you are, um, charting that course, um, it can be even lonelier.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: Um, so I'm glad that, uh, we we had each other and you, you know, because sometimes when you're at a board meeting and the, and, and, and people have a lived experience that is not your lived experience, um, the translation of how your leadership shows up and the choices you're making don't fully resonate.
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm. And
Adren Wilson: having someone like you, 'cause you're really good, this is why you have this, this podcast, right? You're really good at asking the questions. And I just remember time and time again, we'll be in the middle of, uh, for them would be a very deep, emotional, um, experience, and I'm sitting there going, "What are we doing?"
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: And then you would just ask one question that would, would help folk in the room that were struggling in the moment to re- refocus a bit. And understand what the driver was for them personally, but then understand, um, why I was making the decisions I was making in honor of, right, our mission and our values.
'Cause everything I do is in honor of our mission and our values collectively.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. You for sure lead that every single day. And as you're talking, I'm, you know, I'm thinking about, like, the commitments that both of us have made to, like, raising up the next generation, and I think part of it is, is around representation matters.
So as you step in, like, you're more relatable to the people that we're trying to support or working to support or, you know, pipeline into leadership roles. And part of the work of doing that is building so- you know, social capital, social cohesion, a community of people that when you get in role, you have people that can support you in the role.
Right. But I remember those board moments too where it's like I could just look at you. We didn't even have to say anything. And it's... You know, it... I was following my governance role.
Adren Wilson: Yes.
Chanda Smith Baker: But I understood the context differently. Yeah. And I think that for people that maybe sometimes don't understand the language under, right, I think the more you put yourself in situations when you're not in the same community as yourself, you just get smarter.
Adren Wilson: Yeah. Let me, let me tell you, uh, two things 'cause that, like, like, your framing just really kind of, like, it's moved me in, in really profound ways right now. One is the word homophily. Homophily. Um, you know.
Chanda Smith Baker: Okay, Doctor. Say more.
Adren Wilson: It's the fancy word that I picked up at Harvard University.
Chanda Smith Baker: Harvard. Tell us about this word.
Adren Wilson: All right. So I was... It's about networks. So this was, like, many years ago, right? In 2008, 2009 when I'm at Harvard. I said I had an elective. I was like, oh, this is study of networks, right, and how we... And it's not about, uh, typically about racism, but that we gravitate to people that are like us, that have a common experience maybe, right?
Um, and how when we gravitate to them, we automatically, uh, give benefit of doubt. The word that I like to use now is grace, right? And so what we experience, and I experienced in that board meeting, was, um, people that didn't see themselves in me- And so that was at times too foreign, so they were not able to extend grace because the leader before me, because they saw themselves in him, got all the grace, got all the benefit of the doubt.
So maybe if we're not 100% certain, but, but we know him, we understand his values. He moves like us. Maybe, maybe I dare I say he speaks like us, right? Yeah. And, and I just believe in now every space I move in, trying to cultivate as much grace for every single person in the space.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: Uh, because it matters.
And, and in my work at the Obama Foundation, right, leading My Brother's Keeper for boys and young men of color across the country, um, we need, our boys need so much grace. They are-
Chanda Smith Baker: Tell me what you're learning in that, 'cause I'm very curious on how they see leadership, and do they see leadership positionally as accessible?
We know that there's leadership embedded in who they are just because of who they are. But in terms of accessing a leadership role, do, do they feel like it's reachable?
Adren Wilson: I mean, let me say to you, thank you for, like, you're so wise. Thank you for qualifying that because I would tell you all these young men are exercising leadership every single day of their lives, right?
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: Yes, they are. They're leaders. They're, they're leading in their community, all these things, right? They're leading their families, um, you know, all these things. Uh, I, I will say to you that, um, as I move through the country and have conversations with, uh, the, the adults that work with the young men and the young men themselves, um, I, I often feel like, um, we as adults have really let them down.
Like, fundamentally let them down. Um, and I mean that, uh, from, from several vantage points, right? Um, as you know, Chanda, uh, we focus on cradle to career, um, for the work that we do, six milestones, right? Uh, and so this is gonna be my 30-second, like, advertisement.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. Give it to
Adren Wilson: us. Yes. So milestone one, ensuring our children are ready to learn as they enter kindergarten.
Milestone two, reading on grade level at third grade. Milestone three, graduating from high school, but not just graduating, with the skills they need to move to the next step. Uh, milestone four, how do we recruit, um, retain, and graduate more young men of color in two and four-year institutions? Mi- milestone five, full engagement with the workforce.
And then milestone six, right? How do we reduce exposure to violent crime? Um, when I think about those milestones, I often think to myself, um, a three-year-old can't teach himself how to read. A five-year-old can't teach himself how to read, right? Um, that we have these systems that are, that are adults in these systems, and some, some way, uh, uh, some point along the way, uh, we collectively, uh, have failed them.
That they had to go and create on some level, and I'm gonna be careful how I say this, on some level create a subculture, a culture where they can actually feel valued and seen, and have currency and worth And, um, and, and then when you, when you really break that apart, you understand that a lot of these traditional, like, ladders of leadership and constructs have, don't have a whole lot of appeal- Mm-hmm
for people coming behind us. Um- Yeah ... and I don't even see that as a negative. Actually, I see that as really exciting because I think given the respect and given the space and given the opportunity, there's gonna be incredible innovation, um, that comes as a result of that, right? Um, you know, I, I think about, uh, the fact that, uh, you know, I used to really be enamored with all the personalities of the civil rights movement, right?
I think part of it was in my first real job in the world working for the Children's Defense Fund and Marian Wright Edelman, I got exposed up close and personal to these individuals that worked directly with Dr. King and many other luminaries, right? Um, Ella Baker. You, you name it, right? And, um, but they, but that generation of leaders didn't have social media.
Chanda Smith Baker: No.
Adren Wilson: These young... You know, the, the, the, the plus and the minuses of social media. The plus is, and we see it every day, our young people can mobilize themselves in ways that those tools were never designed to be used.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right. Right on.
Adren Wilson: Okay? The pluses, right? Also, maybe some of the negatives. Yeah. And I can make the same statement, use those tools in ways they were never designed.
Um- Oh, yeah. Right? Um, and so, and so what we have to do, I think, as this generation is hold space with grace and dignity and actually listen to our children. How-
Chanda Smith Baker: You know what I was gonna ask you? 'Cause you used the word space twice, right? And I'm like, how do... You know, 'cause we were just talking about just navigation in a boardroom, right?
You got Harvard degrees and stuff, and here you talking about navigating space inside of a boardroom, and it wasn't even a negative thing, right? Like, like, it is just what it is. It's just learning how to s- to navigate a system or a space that was not designed or had not been used to your leadership, right?
So you're, you're equipped
Adren Wilson: Am I, am I is, is the question, right? Sometimes I don't know. Am I equipped? Uh, I think our generation embraced maybe, and I'm just gonna say this, maybe too quickly, we embraced this notion of code switching This, this generation coming behind us
Chanda Smith Baker: They, they switching.
Adren Wilson: They don't really give a damn about code switching too much.
Right. Uh-
Chanda Smith Baker: But how do you know the difference between code switching and just selling out? Like, 'cause I think that the younger generation will be like, "Well, I'ma go in there, and I'm not about to just deny who I am," right? So my word is, is like, "I'm not gonna go in there selling out who I am." I, we're,
Adren Wilson: w- So, so, so now you're, now you're moving us, and I don't know if this is- I'm
Chanda Smith Baker: sorry
Adren Wilson: our podcast, but now you're moving us, because this is actually beyond race when you think about, like, the Gen Z-ers and how they're showing up in workplaces, right? Um, and the expectations, and how, like, they're braver and bolder than you and I could've ever been-
Chanda Smith Baker: Right ...
Adren Wilson: at, at 21 and 23 going into our first jobs.
Um, right, they're gonna change our world. They're gonna change every workplace. And, and what it means by creating space is either we can fight them and, and try to be rigid and say, "You must assimilate," or we can see the gifts and the opportunity to innovate on whatever said profession, whatever said space, and invite that true partnership.
Now, is that easy? Oh, no, it is not easy. It is not easy because, you know, I'm Dolores Nell Wilson's child. My mama raised me a certain way of showing up, and then when you layer onto that the Southern niceness that- Yeah ... is in my bloodstream, right, that flows through every pore of me, when I encounter something that is not that, even if it's housed in the beautiful young brother that looks like me, right, my instinct is to father, to, to parent, and many times that is not what that young man needs.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: That young man actually needs me to, like, look him in the eye and say, "Tell me more about why you said that, and why you're choosing that course, that path."
Because when I, when I seek to understand and not seek to fix, it's a different dynamic.
Chanda Smith Baker: Okay, so let's talk about the seeks to fix.
Adren Wilson: Okay, go, go, go, go for it.
Chanda Smith Baker: 'Cause I'm in a lot of seek to fix conversations, or I have been over the years, right? Oh. Particularly with young Black men. They're like, "All they need is this."
Adren Wilson: Yes. Oh, my world, let me tell you. Let me tell you. That is so real, what you're naming, because we have... And I'm just gonna, I'm saying we 'cause I wanna use the, the, the plural we, you and me, have come up through, like, like, being acceptable Black folk in leadership Maybe because of some of the things we've already named, and you joked about, right?
And I used the word homophily, right? Like, I have Harvard on my resume, all that stuff, right? Uh, so, so we, we moved into roles that I think we both, you and me, have been able to get in role and then m- move the role to a more authentic way of, of being. So we're shifting culture, shifting how we embrace those around us, shifting what outcomes look like.
So we've been able to do that, right? Uh, but it was, uh, what we've named, I'm just gonna say it, right? Some of that code switching that allowed us to move in the ways that we've been able to move. And, and, and there are people, like the generation above us, that was a, a, a, a, an award you got for being able to code switch.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. Yeah.
Adren Wilson: You are good at this, right? Uh, now when we move into these spaces though, and you're, you just set the frame, every frame, sadly for young men of color in our country is, we gotta fix them in these ways, right? And, and what I even, what are six milestones, right? Like, I'm saying this is just the baseline to ensure that the young person can navigate the world.
It's up to them in the exercise of their leadership, right, how, once they have the baseline, right, of what they need to be equipped with, how they decide to lead their lives.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right.
Adren Wilson: Um, and a baseline for me, I'm just gonna be real, I think you gotta be able to read. I think you gotta be able to write. I think you gotta have, uh, in 2026, you gotta be able to graduate high school and have a little more education than high school and a credential, right?
And I'm not saying, that's why I said two and four year. Yeah. Because young brothers that are magical, they are artists with their hands. And artists, what I mean, not limited to, to, to, to drawing and painting, but welding. Right? Uh, how they can go in and, and, and, and sing a song to a car. Mm-hmm. And understand, right?
Like, how to make every note in that car sing loudly, right? Right. Like, like it's the whole, like, gambit. But in 2026, um, even if you are mecha- mechanic- mechanically inclined to, to work on a car, you gotta understand computers.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right. So let's talk about the systems then, because we've... We know, right, the brilliance exists, and we know that they are geniuses in, in community, and then they confront these systems that minimize or wanna fix.
And so again, like, we are equipped with a community that either forced us to stay in it when we didn't want to, whatever the situation is. But there's a reality of you, you go day to day into a system that is saying that they gotta fix you.
Adren Wilson: Yeah, and, and that's why, um, in the work that I do, we talk about systems change.
Chanda Smith Baker: Okay, so.
Adren Wilson: Population level results. Um, and the first thing that we, um, agree with the communities we work with, and we're in over 200 communities across the country, the first thing we say is, "It is not the young man's, uh, fault." We just gotta say that, just level set, like, that, that third grader not being able to read, that's not his fault.
Okay? That's not his fault. And- But
Chanda Smith Baker: is it the parents' fault?
Adren Wilson: It is, it is. I... And I'm, I'm careful with this one, right? '
Chanda Smith Baker: Cause that comes up. I just gotta name it. Oh,
Adren Wilson: it comes up all the time, and I have to say, right, um, I think about my mother, Dolores Nell Wilson, who didn't... Who was educated but didn't have a whole lot of education.
Uh, but, but she, through her prayer, when she would wake up every morning and make sure her baby got on that yellow school bus in rural Louisiana, she was directly and indirectly praying that the system she was turning her child over to- The sister she was turning her child over to would love him, embrace him, and see his brilliance.
Because in her wisdom, she knew there may have been some limits to her lived experience and what she could educate me on.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right.
Adren Wilson: Okay? So not her fault she was born into extreme poverty in rural Louisiana, and not her mom's fault. Because then, when you wanna start looking at the history and how we came over to this place-
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm
Adren Wilson: we didn't come over in yachts. You know? No,
Chanda Smith Baker: in, yep, no plane.
Adren Wilson: I used to joke, right? And, and, and we didn't live in mansions, and we were not all given a Lexus. Okay? And so, so when you look at that trajectory, we have to be very careful to start blaming parents. And then I have to say, for, for the goodwill people who wanna look at that, that young man who's in third grade that can't read on third-grade level and wanna blame the parent, I just have to say, because I lived this, that young man is listening.
And do you think you're gonna be able to, like, embrace him? Or he's gonna... Well, more importantly, is he gonna fully embrace you? If-
Chanda Smith Baker: Has he talked about his mama?
Adren Wilson: Talking about his mama.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: Mm-mm. Because let me tell you, the folk that, um, and even some of my church folk, I will just name it, who talked about my mama, who judged my mama because she had five kids, uh, by several different men- Who was a kind, gentle soul.
So even in church when they would say to her, "Lois, your children are not gonna be anything," or they would judge her because of the number of men she had children with. I still remember their faces, their names to this day
And because some of them are family members, I still love them, but I have not forgotten
Chanda Smith Baker: Why did you... Why, why, let's talk about how important, I don't know, telling someone's story is. Like your words, the importance of narrating someone's experience around them and not with them
Adren Wilson: I, I think I, I think, you know, uh, the fact that you are the Oprah of our time, um, I hope you, I hope that, I hope that stays in this podcast, okay?
Uh, because I need you and Oprah to get together and have a conversation. Uh, and I need it to happen soon. Mm-hmm. But, uh, how about I give that back to you? Because I think, right, um, and in this moment, I'm, I'm fully realizing as I'm talking about my mother and the first leaders of my world, of my life were Black women, right?
Like, my mother and my grandmother. My, my, my maternal grandmother lived to be only 50 years old.
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm.
Adren Wilson: My mother only lived to be 44 years old, right? And so, so this, like, this notion of, like, narration around someone, like, when I look at you, I think, um, I don't need to answer that. Like, like, the, the, like, like, you as a Black woman who has held it down for our community for so long, right?
Because the other thing I get, like, sometimes in my work is, uh, well, you know, we don't need the Black women. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Yes, we do. Now, do we need Black men? Yes, we do. We need fathers and we need mothers. Mm-hmm. And we need more fathers, right? Um, in the mix. Um, and more father figures in the mix, right?
But we still need women. We still need Black women, we still need Brown women, we still need Native women, um, um, in this formula for success for our boys. Um, and so I'm trying to toss it back to you, but you're just letting me, like, continue to talk.
Chanda Smith Baker: I mean, I, you know, I mean, I asked it as a reinforcement of the story that you just shared because, you know, one of the things I've said on this podcast, um, often is that part of how my leadership journey was informed was by where I lived.
Adren Wilson: Mm.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right? So very different circumstance, right? I'm up here. I lived with my parents, right? My dad was working. We, he was in the house with us. But I lived in North Minneapolis, which was, um, a beautiful community from my perspective. Like, I, I really just had a great childhood, and the community was challenged.
But what, as I got older, I, I remember just hearing the narrative around where I lived and who they thought the people were that lived there. What their... Like, we, you know, the lang- We gotta interrupt their trajectory. We gotta... You know, like, all of this language. And then fast-forward, I'm a parent, and I remember one of my sons coming home and saying, "Mom, like, I need to make sure I'm in the right program so that I don't end up going to the wrong place because I'm only partially proficient."
Adren Wilson: Wow
Chanda Smith Baker: Right? And I remember just hearing him and actually being triggered by my own childhood thoughts, because I would hear this adult language or this, this language around me that says that without some sort of intervention, I was headed to, you know... You hear it all the time, jail or death or whatever these narratives are.
Yeah. And I think in the work that we lead in, there's obviously an understanding of what is at play.
Adren Wilson: Yes.
Chanda Smith Baker: But then we narrate it out loud- Mm ... without full, I think, understanding of how those stories and those impressions live in one's body, who then, you know, how it impacts how you see yourself in the world within a system, within leadership, all of this.
And I think it's one of the most underestimated things. And I'll just add to this, that when my kids were going to school, I was making choices, and I remember just saying like, "One of the responsibilities I have is to make sure that they have a strong sense of self." Yeah. Like, whatever environment they in, I need people to respect them.
Adren Wilson: Yeah. Oh my, oh my goodness, I will tell you that one of the things, the themes from, from this conversation that, that we should pull out is that children are listening. That children are listening. Mm-hmm. Uh, because to this day, talk about like we all carry our stuff. We all carry our insecurities, we all carry our imposter syndrome, right?
To what degree, how we cope with it, but we all carry our stuff. One of the things still to this day that I have to reckon with, with myself is when I'm charged to read out loud. I know you're laughing.
Chanda Smith Baker: I am laughing 'cause Freedom School be wanting you to read all the time, and I, and I know where you're going 'cause I be feeling the same way.
Adren Wilson: I led Freedom Schools, right? Like, that was one of the programs I led when I was at the Children's Defense Fund. And reinforce why it was so important. Because there i- there were voices in my head from my kindergarten years to my first grade years, when you know, like back, back in the day, you would get a book, the teacher would sit in front of the class, and you would have your paragraph.
You would have-
Chanda Smith Baker: Don't let there be a big word up in there.
Adren Wilson: Let me... Don't let it be a big word. And I would try to count off, like we all did it, right? Try to count off and like, like see what, what point I would come so I could read it and try to figure out the word so I wouldn't look bad. But it never failed that when it got to me, I would stumble through a word, and the teacher would not extend grace like she extended grace to little Johnny ahead of me or little Susan behind me.
She would look, she would say to the class, "What is the word? Tell Adren." And for little Johnny and little Susan, it was, "Sound it out, baby. That's an R." So, so I, I wanna say give her the benefit of the doubt and the grace that she didn't know what she was doing in that moment, but I internalized that as something's wrong with me, I can't read out loud.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: And those are the things that we carry. That's- I got, I done wrote a dissertation, right? I went to Harvard, right? I, I've given speeches to, to groups of just like you, right? Thousand or 5,000 people, all the things, right? Uh, but, but at our core, um, those things we, again, uh, you know, the same frame, uh, we attach emotion to, those narratives around us, the point that you made about your children coming in and talking about, you know, your son saying, "I'm not fully proficient."
We gotta figure out a way to not blame the child.
Chanda Smith Baker: Man, that just seems so basic.
Adren Wilson: It seems so basic, but we got adults, and I love them, all of, all of them, but we got adults failing this test every day.
Chanda Smith Baker: They are failing it.
Adren Wilson: Failing this test every day.
Chanda Smith Baker: Well, you know, you worked for Obama. Who has narrated what a presidency could look like- Yes
in terms of who can be in the role.
Adren Wilson: Who can be in the role.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right. And how you are in the role.
Adren Wilson: But who can show up well in the role. Can show up with intellect, can show up with grace, can show up with humor. Can show up as a human being.
Chanda Smith Baker: As a human.
Adren Wilson: With his wife and his children, all of that, right?
Chanda Smith Baker: Just the observation of it, right?
And I was certainly over sort of my formative years, but from a leadership perspective, I stay in, in a formative year, right? Of like, "Oh, wow, leadership is just evolving," as you get to witness great leaders. And I've had the opportunity... I think the reason why this is coming up is 'cause we're talking about disruption and narrative and possibility and all the things that we're talking about.
And I had the opportunity to be at the Obama Presidential Center.
Adren Wilson: I was excited to host you. Uh- Thank
Chanda Smith Baker: you for that.
Adren Wilson: Yeah. You know, a- and said, "This is you and your family," right? Like, "You're experiencing this during our soft opening period, and so, uh, so you're seeing it before the world got to see it."
Chanda Smith Baker: I did.
I was, I was amped about that. I think I was there day two.
Adren Wilson: Yes. Yes, yes.
Chanda Smith Baker: And we walked through together. And I have to tell you all listening that not only did you escort us, but you asked everybody's name that worked there and you made sure you introduced yourself. And, uh, the, the complex, the center is more than I could have ever imagined.
I just wanna let people know, if you have not been there, like, it is more than.
Adren Wilson: Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: But what I walked away remembering is the conversations we were having with the folks that were working there.
Adren Wilson: Uh, yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: And I remember there was a guy there, I think he was on the maintenance team, and I asked him what he was the most excited about.
And he said, "Obama did what he said he was gonna do."
Adren Wilson: Mm. Mm.
Chanda Smith Baker: And can you imagine all of these kids that live across the street- Mm ... that get to see this?
Adren Wilson: Oh.
Chanda Smith Baker: And I'm like... He's like, "The community's gonna be safer," right? People can see possibility right here. You hear about how Chicago, the South Side is narrated, and you get up on that, that, that whatever floor it is, the fifth floor- Right?
And you look out and it's beautiful.
Adren Wilson: Yeah. Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: And the, the sense of pride, and I just think I, in my excitement to go there, I think I underestimated the stories that were being disruptive as a result of it being there
Adren Wilson: Yeah, so two things I just wanna note, right? So I shared with you that, you know, the Obama Foundation, from the community, hired like 250 folks, right, um, that were fairly new, right?
Because you went through the soft opening period, so, so many of them were first engaging with all of us, right? And so you had folk like me that had been working at the foundation for many years. And it was just really important to me that every single new person there, um, from, from program to security to maintenance, y- you know, custodial, whatever, that I was able to, to look them in their eye and say, "I'm on your team."
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. "
Adren Wilson: We're in this together. Look how blessed we are." Because that's how I felt, sincerely felt. And, and you're right because there's so much joy there because of what the space represents, what the legacy of the Obamas represent. It's powerful.
Chanda Smith Baker: It's so powerful. I came, the second time I went, and I, I had my bag or something.
Remember I checked my bag. And you know I don't be giving up my bag, no.
Adren Wilson: Yes,
Chanda Smith Baker: yes. I need my bag with me. It's got my stuff in it, right? Like, you know, I need, I need, I need to keep my eyes on my purse or whatever. And, um, uh, she asked me, the woman at the bag check, the coat check, asked me, and I said, "No, I'ma keep it with me."
And she said, "Miss, we're trying to practice so we can be perfect by the time we open."
I'm like, I sat there for two seconds. I'm like, "All right. Take my bag. Take my bag." Yeah. She's like, "We gotta practice. This is why you're here, is to make sure that we are ready-
Adren Wilson: Yes ...
Chanda Smith Baker: for the people that are coming in." And I like... It was such a moment of leadership for her to say that to me.
Adren Wilson: Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: It's like we almost just looked at each other like, "I'm giving you my bag.
I trust you." She's like, "I need, I need you to help me, and I trust you." Like, we had a, we had a bond over that, that moment.
Adren Wilson: Talk about the power of community. What, what you experienced with her was community.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah, it was.
Adren Wilson: Saw her fully. She saw you fully in that moment, right? And if anything, I think that's what the Obamas represent.
The legacy of the Obamas is we can all cultivate community.
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm.
Adren Wilson: No matter how small or how large, we can do that.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. Can we talk about your name on the wall?
Adren Wilson: I told you my peoples, right? My peoples in my rural town, because my local, local newspaper picked the story up and shared, right, that I, I work for the Obama Foundation.
My name is on... It's the wall, those who created the center, right, uh, wall. And I, I'm just... I'm trying not to get emotional, but I'm just humbled that, that for whatever reason, God in this moment has me at the foundation, a part of this legacy. Um, and again, right, you know, I, I, I, I can juxtapose it for you.
Little kid who did not have indoor plumbing or running water in his home, who mama cries herself to sleep, sleep at night in the summer months 'cause our food stamps would run out because we were not getting food in school. That, that I can sit here before you and say my name is on the wall, right, as maybe some large or small contribution to, to this presidential center, the Obama Presidential Center.
I am just deeply humbled and grateful that, uh, that for this moment, God has put me here.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. I mean, the fact that the wall exists, right? The whole center got his name on it.
Adren Wilson: Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. And in the middle of it, he has a whole wall to thank everyone that helped make that possible, that worked on the team. I think that's an incredible thing.
Adren Wilson: But, but it, it illustrates their values, right? He could've named every room after him, but as you saw, we have the John Lewis Plaza.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: Like, like, like we had funders that contributed, but, but it wasn't put your name on the wall. It's like, what luminary that has changed our world do you wanna honor?
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah.
Adren Wilson: Thanks. Um, again, it just speaks to the kind of leader that I, I pray I am today and I aspire to be tomorrow. Um, leaders that seek to unite us, include us, all of us, um, and, and, and see the strength in that collective. Yeah. Um, probably, you know, together the fashion, the joy, but then also do the hard work of fashioning solutions-
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm
Adren Wilson: of our communities and our country. Yeah. Um, that's the kind of leader I wanna be, and that's the kind of leader that President Obama has role modeled for the world. Not just us, for the world.
Chanda Smith Baker: I think so too. As we wrap, just talk about, like, I don't even know. Like, it just feel like I can't even imagine what it would be like to work in this moment, in this space you're in because of- All of the joy that has been brought as a result of the opening, maybe it was the opening.
H- I mean, what, what, did anything shift in you? Like, you were already there, but, like, post-opening, like, y- you know, you're talking about, like, you hope to aspire, but, like, did anything shift in you as a matter of witnessing this?
Adren Wilson: I, I was talking earlier, and I'm gonna have to close my eyes 'cause looking at you I am gonna start crying. I, I was talking about earlier about being present and attaching emo- emotion. Mm-hmm. So you... In it. There have been so many moments that I've just quieted my whole soul and said to myself You're gonna remember this for the rest of your life.
This feeling of joy, this feeling that you're part of something so big, so much bigger than you. That, that, that in your representation, your mother who never dreamed that there would be a Black president is present in this.
Chanda Smith Baker: Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Adren Wilson: Experiencing this. Her mother, and her mother, and her mother. That, that I just...
I now, I'll be honest with you, I soaked it all in, and I continue to soak it all in. When I walk that campus, I sometimes, right, like, I know people think, like, this must be one of the happiest places in the world because even when I'm just walking through the campus, not even like in the museum or in the forum and all the other bu- Just walking the campus, I can't help but hold my head up high and try to greet every single person I pass.
I'm like, "Good morning. Good afternoon." I just want to- ... like, share this in some way with folk.
Chanda Smith Baker: Well, one of the groups you shared it with was your guys from My Brother's Keeper. Like, I didn't get to... I got to see them, I think, right when they were walking in. Yes. Can you just share, I know we gotta wrap, but just, like, how was it for you to witness them seeing that place?
Adren Wilson: Let me tell you, the beauty of, and it was alw- always this design. You named it from, from the maintenance person you engaged with, talking about community. It was always designed to be this living- Mm ... uh, space for all of us. You know, especially the folk in Chicago as well, right? And the c- folk across the world.
And so, so the, the power of this is that we're in partnership with Chicago Public Schools, and My Brother's Keeper, right, is working in high schools and working in elementary schools around our six milestones, right? We're trying to figure out how we can accelerate reading growth, right? How we can graduate more young men.
How we can get more young men in college, and, and really importantly, how we can save more lives, um, so that they, their lives are not cut short as a result of violence. But let me tell you, talk about when those young men, those fifth graders or sixth graders, I think the day when you came was, like, fifth and sixth graders, right?
In their I Am My Brother's Keeper T-shirt.
Chanda Smith Baker: So cute. Mack was all hype. Shout out to Mack.
Adren Wilson: They were just giggly. And excited. And for many of them, like their first true introduction to President Obama. Mm-hmm. It's hard for some of us that walked the walk in America, right? Um, and that were here at every step of the way, but you got some young people now, right, that, that he was not there, right?
Right. And then you got some that are a little older that they've always known a president to be a Black man and a Black woman first lady.
Chanda Smith Baker: Mm-hmm.
Adren Wilson: Right? It's just really powerful. But to see them and their joy, and I just have to tell you what, what, what makes me giggle inside to witness th- their joy, and then witnessing right behind them, uh, a 68-year-old or 78-year-old white woman or Black woman or Black man with the same level of joy.
Talking about transformative and transcendent. Wow Wow.
Chanda Smith Baker: Man, I have a gazillion more questions and no more time. But I will tell you, like, every time I'm in space with you, I'm just always so touched by your ability to hold the complexity of what leadership is with perspective. 'Cause there's so many people that experience hard things, or maybe they weren't getting as much grace as they should've, or maybe this isn't going as well in the boardroom or wherever it is, it's easy to just land there.
Adren Wilson: Yeah.
Chanda Smith Baker: Right? But to like, be in the experience and say, "Right, I had community to support me," right? That, um, I needed this lesson so that I can understand better how to serve community. Like, you just have a way of making it a learning, uh, an informative moment, an opportunity to dig down. Like, you started out talking about the valley moments, where like, sometimes you just gotta sit in it and understand what was meant for you, and you just hold it in a way that's like, yeah, that's right.
Yeah. Um, because all of this is part of leadership. Like, you just can't take pieces and leave the rest.
Adren Wilson: It's all a part of leadership. And the one thing that, um, is really important for me to say for, for your viewers and listeners to understand, and that is, uh, there's just no thing ever in the history of the world as a perfect leader.
We are human, and, and, and those that get closest to perfection understand just how flawed they are. And are trying to wake up every day and just do a little better. And I think at my core is having seen, right, like... And I'll, and I'll wrap with this, having seen how two leaders in my life that were as closest to perfection as I think you can get, my grandmother and my mother, be beaten up by everybody in every direction.
And still to this day, some of the strongest leadership lessons I pull on come directly from them. And I've been in every school, every ivory tower, every room where, where people with a whole lot of money, and that just incredibly humbles me to understand none of us are perfect, but all of us have a whole lot to give if we choose to.
Love you, my sister, always.